Question 1: Why should we care if Poshard did or did not plagiarize? It is his life that’s on the line, not ours.
Rebuttal: Poshard is the Presidential head of our SIUE School. He’s our representation for what our school stands for. Regardless whether he did or did not plagiarize this accusation will follow him and our diplomas. So, it’s not really just his life that these suspicions have questioned, it’s our education that’s going to be called on it too.
Question 2: I think the board is able to handle something like this. It’s not like we, as students, are able to understand and make a decision as tough as this.
Rebuttal: This decision was a HUGE one and there would probably be controversy either way, but the way the board handled it just wasn’t up to par with what I was imagining. If this issue is affecting us all then why was there no open trial? This “huge” decision was made in 2 hours. The decision that’ll affect all of our diploma’s and status after graduation. This decision that will make your accomplishments seem like a hard earned goal, or a blow-off goal.
Question 3: But this was done years ago when things were different, why do you think Poshard should be punished now when the rules weren’t there when he wrote it?
Rebuttal: It’s true. The rules were different back then and it seems that plagiarism, unintentional or not, has been something that the education and even the government have been cracking down on. Does this mean though that you get away with it only because you made it past the deadline? That’s the same thing to me as promoting, as long as there’s no rule stating you can’t…You can! Something that’s wrong is wrong, no matter what time period it is in.
Question 4: His plagiarism was unintentional so that means that he just didn’t know any better. Why should he be punished for not knowing any better?
Rebuttal: Let’s take this one from someone else’s point of view. How about the people at Plagiarism.org? “It doesn't matter if you intend to plagiarize or not! In the eyes of the law, and most publishers and academic institutions, any form of plagiarism is an offense that demands punitive action. Ignorance is never an excuse” (Plagiarism.org).
Question 5: So, what happened with the whole scandal?
SH, 18
8 comments:
Q1: Do students at Virginia Tech get scrutinized because of the shooting tragedy? Do graduates of Duke have to fear that they will be thought of as rapists? No employer in their right mind will blame any student or question any graduate's degree from SIU. Poshard does not represnt the education taking place at the institution.
Q2: SIU's Conduct Code does not require "open trials" in their disciplinary due process. The BOT did not make the "decision" in two hours. The committee spent weeks investigating the matter and reported their findings to the BOT. The BOT trusted the committee and decided to go along with the committee's recommendations. Again, you will not be questioned about your choice of school because of this.
Q3: Ex Post Facto. Constitution. If something isn't illegal or regulated, you cannot be punished for doing it. It's your Constitutional right. If alcohol, cigarettes, or abortion was banned tomorrow, you could not go back and punish those who previously used any of them. Moral right and wrongs are based on personal beliefs. For example, former slave owners were not punished because they owned slaves while it was legal in this country.
Q4: Again, it was plagiarism by today's standard, not the standard 24 years ago. Turnitin.com did not find any instances of plagiarism in the document when it was ran through their software.
Your teacher is tarnishing the minds of all of you fresh out of high school kids. She is not allowing you to think objectively about the issue and I'm afraid she's only presenting you with cherry-picked facts. This is the same approach used by AFAC and all of the others calling the investigation a joke. Look at all the facts, then make your own judgement. Read the dissertation, read the full report from the committee, read other dissertations from a time before you were born. Don't trust the letters to the editor and editorials to give you all the facts, it's lazy. However, now it is too late, for your judgement has been clouded with a preconceived notion that Poshard is guilty and deserves death.
If you had looked at everything, I wouldn't of had to spell out all of the inaccuracies in your post.
I don't believe this should have ever been an issue, but that's another story about the unethical actions of AFAC. Since it has, Dr. Poshard needs to do more than just say "sorry" and fix some typos. SIU needs more than a band-aid to stop the bleeding right now.
1. I'm sorry, but your analogy doesn't make any sense.
I'm talking about how Poshard is our President and how his image is still with our school and our diploma.
You're talking about a tragic event, there's no correlation. Academics are different from Tragedies.
Saying our president doesn't reflect our school is like saying the U.S. President doesn't reflect America to those who live in other countries.
2: No it does not, but I am saying since this involves everyone why is it being hushed up so much? Poshard is not giving up anything except that he made "a mistake". Is he expecting us all to just forget that his Master Thesis and his doctorate was all "inadvertent" plagiarism? Well, Poshard's not the only one who made a mistake. If he isn't capable of doing his own Master Thesis and Doctorate then he shouldn't have his degree.
3. There was still laws against Plagiarism in the 1970s. There's this thing call Copyrights where if you publish the same thing from someone else without giving them credit or asking for permission, then that means you broke the law. Poshard's sources were not given their credit! Even Thesis' can have their own copyrights and Poshard took someone else's there too!
4. It's still plagiarism no matter what time period you're in. This "mistake" has created many more "mistakes" in return.
Erik you also need to check your own work for typos! You have plenty of them!
Have you read the dissertation? If you had, you would see that the sources were all cited in the bibliography. I'm willing to bet you haven't even read the 11-page report submitted by the committee to the BOT.
He did not infringe on any copyright laws. Copyrights involve a criminal offense. Plagiarism was never and is not currently a criminal act. Courts enforce copyright laws, they do not address plagiarism. Intellectual peers enforce plagiarism guidelines.
Poshard did not award himself any degrees. His dissertation committee approved his dissertation which was then submitted to the Graduate School for final approval. If the plagiarism was so obvious in 1985, why didn't any of the -at minimum- 6 faculty members notice these horrible infractions and take action then? If you are going to blame anyone for failure, start with his dissertation committee from 1985, however since all but one member is now deceased little justice could be served down this avenue.
Again, Ex Post Facto. Slavery was and is still slavery, but do you discredit all of our founding fathers for owning slaves? If so, would the very existence of this country be negated?
And you also need to check your posts for grammar.
I'm with Erik
It's interesting that Erik so readily claims that we are employing an "ex post facto" fallacy through the use of a "straw man" fallacy. In fact, there are so many "straw men" in his argument his post is beginning to look like a scarecrow factory. Let's start with the "ex post facto" claim in Q3. Erik claims that if "something isn't illegal and regulated, you cannot be punished for doing it." However, in the 1980's plagiarism was indeed "illegal and regulated." Check out Napolitano v. Princeton Univ., 453 A.2d 279, 283 (N.J.Super.Ch.Div. 1982). It's eerily similar to the Poshard case with the notable exception that the defendant was found guilty. Oh, and that was years before Poshard's dissertation was submitted.
Let's look at another straw man--Q1 and Q2: Virginia Tech and Duke were cases of violence, not academic misconduct by administration. In Ronald B. Standler's 2000 report titled "Plagiarism in Colleges in USA" he writes, "Reputations in academia are made on the basis of creating new knowledge: discoveries of new facts, new ways of looking at previously known facts, original analysis of old ideas, .... A plagiarist receives credit for expression or analysis that was improperly taken from someone else. In this view, the plagiarist commits fraud, by claiming the work of other people as the plagiarist's own work." The entire piece can be found at www.rbs2.com/plag.htm.
Finally, let's talk about "tarnishing minds." Do you really believe that students are that gullible and malleable? At SIUE, students are taught to think critically and analytically, rhetoric by doing research and having the facts before taking a position, to build ethos by correctly incorporating information into a lucid argument. However, they are also taught not to succumb to intimidation or heated rhetoric. We feel that the plagiarism issue is an important because it directly affects the very scholarly processes we value. We feel that if an author cannot demonstrate that he/she has properly conducted research, that author's credibility is damaged. For example, it is obvious that you did not do any research regarding the professor or this class, although you resort to intimidation and heated rhetoric by freely maligning both the students’ critical thinking abilities and the instructor through your claim that "she is not allowing you to think objectively." Have you ever sat in on this class? Have you discussed any of these topics with the professor or with any of the students of this class? If not, then you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. It’s difficult to take you seriously when you are spouting unsubstantiated claims on even the most basic of facts relating to this class. For example, had you done the least bit of research on this professor and this class, you would have discovered right off that the instructor is a 6'8." 300 lb. bearded male, not a "she." I invite you to discuss, not condemn. Don’t be a bitter “flamer;”follow your own advice and "look at all the facts," be open-minded, and discuss the issues before you slander someone.
So a facutly member at SIUe has chosen to annonymously shoot down my entire argument because it goes against his mantra.
I'm flattered.
Did your class read the whole dissertation and the full committee report? Or are they making decisions based on what you tell them and what the newspapers tell them?
Only Q1 could be considered a straw man fallacy, I'll give you that.
The ex post facto argument holds true. Plagiarism is not a criminal act, even though this seems to be a fun topic of debate in legal circles. Depending on what scholarly work you would care to read, you can find one that says it is criminal (through copyright laws, etc) and one that says it is not covered by copyright laws, etc. However, I digress, if Poshard wrote in a manner which was accepted at the time in acadame, why should we have the right to go back and criticize that now? Why aren't we investigating all dissertations from that time peroid? We can hold impose current standards of citation and plagiarism on the standards of the past.
Plagiarism standards are always evolving and changing. You, sir should know this as an educator. Today's standards must be more strict as technology has made it very easy to cheat.
Anyway, bravo for sticking up for your students and creating this forum for them to become active in. No matter what the outcome, it's a good experience for them...but they must be able to take heat from the other side. Open discussion in academia is all about letting everyone have a voice and allowing everyone to defend themselves.
Looking at this a year later, I just caught something to my interest. I am a sophomore at SIUE this year and my English 101 teacher did not create this forum, I did, it was my teacher that encouraged everyone else to get involved in it. This blog was a great academic oportunity to have our voices heard no matter how big or small we were/are. Everyone's voice needed to count in this scandal because it not only affected the faculty and staff but the students as well. Plagiarism is still an extremely large issue at SIU and it always will be.
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